It's About The Horse

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4355 Location: Kansas

First of all, these are the things this crazy woman (me) thinks about, out in the pasture. I really hope ya'll will share your take on things. So, I was thinking...
I wondered what it would be like to be a cow. You know, what do they think about all day? What goes through their minds? What would it be like to put myself in a cow body for a few minutes to experience cowdom? Then I thought, oh crap, veto that. I'd probably get into that body and forget who I am and be trapped! Then, are ya with me? I wondered if that might be what it's like, anyway. We wonder what it would be like to be in A body, this body, this life, so we go for it. Then we get trapped, forget who we are until death do we part ways with said body. That whole lifetime, we sit there trying to recall who we are, what we know, and it's like trying to remember a dream, ya know? Just like the cows, but with better toys and more freedom...for some. For some a slaughter house would be an improvement. For some, they are California happy cows, and get to make cheese. For some, they get to hang out in a dairy, make more cows and never know what it's like to live in a pasture. See where I'm going with this? How different are we than the cows? Trapped in a body with no memory of who we are?
_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

Deb, I'm right there with you, I think. I have often wondered what cows think, having been around cows my entire life. I think they would feel trapped if they were in a feedlot, or tied up in a barn. My cows are out on pasture 24/7. I like to believe that I have provided a good natural life for them. However, I still usually sell off their calves every year which results in the cow's mourning of the loss of the thing that is most important to them, their babies. So, at best, I only provide them with a mostly natural lifestyle. What do they think about that? Good question.

I have had things happen with my cows over the years that indicate to me that they have a depth of feeling that man is unaware of, or unconcerned about. For example, a few years ago, I heard a cow bawling out on the back pasture. A quick glance at the cow told me that she had just calved but the calf was nowhere to be seen. While I was looking for the calf, the cow was watching me intently but not moving. Then suddenly, as I was headed across a creek, I heard the sound of thundering hooves behind me. I turned around and saw that cow running in my direction but to my side about 10' or so. She ran at considerable speed right past me until she was at the base of a large oak tree along the side of the creek. Then she turned and stood motionless, her eyes on me intently.

I figured this behavior was related to her calf so I had to decide whether to venture in her direction and risk being charged by her as she protected her calf or to investigate further. It was one of those decisions that only experience can help you with. I finally judged that she wasn't warning me to stay away but rather, actually seemed to be inviting me to come closer.

I was still a bit apprehensive but I figured I could use that oak tree to keep her away from me if I had to and she was giving me a few feet of distance from the tree anyway. That was part of the inviting nature of the situation.

When I arrived at the tree, I was able to see a newborn calf laying there and I could see that it looked stillborn. I looked at the cow who was now observing me not just with intensity but with what seemed to be a spark of hope or a pleading with me to do something. She had relied on me to feed her and to water her. My thought was that I was viewed as the provider of all things. Maybe, possibly, she was thinking that I could provide life to her newborn baby.

So I walked around to her calf, thus placing myself within maybe 6' of the cow, knelt down and felt of the calf for signs of life. But there were no signs of life. The calf was clearly dead. Now, maybe I was just experiencing an overly active imagination but I suddenly found myself dreading the thought of having to face that cow and telling her that her calf was dead. Maybe I was picking up something from that cow. It felt like I could feel her eyes on my back as though she was expecting a miracle to occur and I was no longer worried about an attack from her.

I actually had to force myself to face that cow. What I really wanted to do was just walk off and spend some time feeling sorry for myself that I had just suffered a loss of some income with the loss of the calf. But the feeling I was getting from the cow was so intense that it just didn't feel like the right thing to do so I turned and that cow and I stared into each others' eyes for a few seconds and I swear that I saw the hope in her eyes change to sadness as though she had read my mind and she now knew that all hope was lost. We must have faced each other like that for a couple of minutes until finally I sensed such a deep sadness from her that it became more than I was prepared to withstand. I stood up and walked away, glancing back a number of times to see the cow, now standing over her dead calf at the base of the large oak tree by the side of the creek, appearing only now to be resigned to accept the death of her newborn baby.

As I said, maybe it was my imagination but it's also possible that cows, like horses, experience many of the same emotions that humans do, and they are only left to wonder if man will ever recognize their feelings.

Was that anthropomorphism or was it just my imagination? I honestly don't know, but it felt real, and if it was real, a whole lot of people owe a whole lot of cows a big apology for the way they have been treated.

So Deb, I guess, instead of really answering your question, I may have asked another one: Who is more trapped, the cow for being unable to alter their lot in life, or mankind for being unable to recognize the cow's lot in life?

Or maybe that was your question.

Larry

Blue Flame · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject:

I have no doubt that cows have feelings just like horses and dogs. I love watching calves play.

A workmate inherited a cow on a farm he bought. It had been a family pet. It would come running up and bounce around like a puppy whenever the people returned home - all 600kg of bounciing puppy-joy.

Another freind once said that when you love a cat - you give it a soul. I don't know about that, but I certainly have observed that when you are considerate of an animal, they show you characteristics you initially didn't expect. They are no longer indifferent towards you.

I think once an animal decides that you care, they open up to you - allow themselves to be a little bit vulnerable - but can get a bit cheeky as well.

That's a very touching story Larry. The workmate I mentioned about got his arm broken one day when he got between cow and calf. In the past year or so I have accidentally run over two young birds, a quail and a pied stilt - you expect them to just get out the way but the young ones often haven't learned how to yet. Saw a seagull explode on some power lines once as well. In all cases, the companions of those birds showed definite distress and it is as sad for me as if a human stranger had died. Sadder sometimes because I wonder if they understand.

As I write this it is just coming light at 6:45am on a frosty winter morning and our 2 labradors are curled up on the couch beside me. These ultimate family dogs are so giving of themselves that I wonder just what it is THEY see in US. As has been said before. I'd like to be the person my dogs think I am.

I don't know if I could actually be a farmer without becoming a vegetarian - then again . . .

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Interesting thread Deb. I also lived among cows for many years, hand raising several batches of dairy steers. The first I raised with four bummer lambs. He was a little confused, thought he was a sheep. He would bawl for his sheep and all the cows would come running and he was terrified of them! It took him some time to figure out he was a cow...and he always yearned for his lambs.

I do not know what a wild cow is or where they came from. Are there still wild cows? I wonder how they are in nature. All our cows are domestic, and even our wild range cows don't know what it is really like to be wild, they have been domestic so long. How much do calves enjoy being roped repeatedly? I saw one once run out of the chute and lay down without being roped...he went off to feedlot.

We had a cow I raised name Sheldon. She was half Angus and half Holstein. She was our milk cow and I put dairy calves on her also. You could ride her and she did tricks. She was very much like you describe Sandy, delighted with her humans.

Of course the cows who break my heart are veal calves I can't eat veal. I think it is a heartless thing to do to an animal, any animal.

As humans, we aren't very empathetic to other animals. Not terribly bright either. There was an animal rights person on Facebook arguing against the deer hunt. Said it was cruel. Said people should just buy meat at the store! See, not too bright.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

becdubie · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject:

Well I've never wondered what it's like to be a cow...but I think they can come to like people, if they aren't mistreated. And yes people mistreat cows. What Carol brought up about being roped over and over for sport. YUCK....I quit going to rodeos because of that..saw someting really sad happen to a young calf. Did not really enjoy that part of the Buck clinic last weekend either.
The deserve to be treated with respect and given the most natural life possible, like Larry does. Nothing makes me happier than watching the baby calves run and play out the fields in the spring. I love driving through our big open spaces between towns here in Montana and seeing the herds of cattle out grazing out in 100's of acres. Some laying down chewing their cuds...the babysitter for the calves so the mama's can have some "alone time" is the best. Cows have souls and should not be penned up in knee deep muck getting as fat as possible eating corn, then shipped to the grocry store. I believe they are for us to eat, but we need to treat them with respect.

I don't buy beef very often, but when I do I pay for the grass fed range cows from the natural ranch here in Choteau. We eat almost all wild game at my house.

oh and this person...

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4477 Location: Missouri

Very nice you all! Yes I have wondered what it would be like to be many different species. I don't like the word anthropomorphism; people use it to keep others of us from believing in ourselves and what we, intrinsically, know to be true.

_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

Clarissa · Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:02 am Post subject:

This type of thinking is at the heart of the Australian Animal Welfare push to stop the live export trade. Most Aussie farmers now use much gentler techniques to raise their stock so they are not bruised or tough when they go to slaughter. However the Indonesian or general muslim nations have no such sentimentality & routinely torture the animal to death in the name of religion. These are aussie animals that have learned to trust the humans around them.

As a kid my family had friends who ran a butchery & raised their own cattle. At slaughter time the steers were moved into these rich pasture paddocks directly behind the butcher shop. As required the animal was lined up in the butcher's rifle sights & shot as it ate. It dropped dead instantly onto lush grass & was bled & skinned & the carcass moved into the shop within minutes to be hung in the cold room with no bruising or stress involved. Same applied to his sheep which he purchased then ran in a special paddock to settle for a few weeks prior to slaughter.

What little meat we ate came from that shop.

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lizloveshorses · Member Joined: 24 Jan 2011 Posts: 101

Deb, this was just what I needed to read this morning. I believe that we are all trapped in our physical bodies and just trying to remember who we are, which is divine. A lot of people don't ever get there. That's why I think there's re-incarnation, so that the soul has time to learn something new in each lifetime. That's where "old souls" come from. But that's just my thoughts on it. I had never compared it to cows, but the analogy fits perfectly. Thanks for giving me something beautiful and interesting to think of this morning!

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4355 Location: Kansas

In the book, Equis (and don't remember how she came to know this) when a horse dies, he goes as an individual but joins the spirit of horse, and becomes one. Maybe what the horse does, is join right back up with God. Not just the spirit of the horse, but the part of God that is the horse. Are ya following me? No reincarnation necessary. They are like angel in a way, teachers, watchers, messengers. Maybe it's why they know so much about love, being in the moment, seeking balance, and being at one with all that surrounds them. Maybe that's why when some of us look at a horse, what we really see is a way of being we've forgotten. A place we long to be, within ourselves. All those "dumb" animals are more evolved than we can possibly imagine. It's us, we egotistical, jugemental, cruel, messed up humans that are out there in the big pasture that is life, dumbly chewing our cud and not realizing who we are, where we are, why we are here or what life is for. We judge, we hurt, we kill, we humans...are the least of all evolved souls. Even the ants live as one. The bees. We aren't even as smart as ants.
_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4355 Location: Kansas

ok, another pasture ponder for you. My daughter is not very tolerant of religion, especially if she thinks she sees some kind of "rediculous, blindly following indivdual with no..." well, you get it. Her boyfriend is muslim. She knows this is a temporary arrangement. She could never tolerate that culture or lifestyle. She told me her boyfriend "actually believes that if your mother is mad at you when you die, you go to hell until she forgives you". I think I said something like, "well, you better not piss me off" or something to that effect. He prays five times a day and uses a compass to make sure he is facing Mecca. If ya don't, doesn't count. Muslim religion it seems is kind of on a point system, more points mean more heaven I guess.
This got me thinking. If we create our reality by the choices we make in this life, could we also create our hereafter too? There is power in ritual. If millions of muslems have been performing a ritual for 1000's of years, doesn't it create reality? At least for those individuals? Maybe there is a pergatory for catholics. Because they know it to be so, and so it is.
I've had an out of the body, death type experience. I had no preconcieved idea of heaven, so my experience was my own. If I had believed a certain thing would happen, is that what I would have experienced? Is this why there can be different out of the body experiences?
And...if you believe a certain way, like here, can you change your mind and change your experience? If you are dead, your experience is lets say pergatory, can you change your mind and experience something else? Know what I mean? I know that what we think "is", is so much more than what we can wrap our brains around.
Kinda like horsemanship. Tom Dorrance is kinda the Gahdi of horses, I think. He's like a holy man of horses, because his understanding goes so much deeper than ours. I remember going to sufi retreats and just sitting in the same room with the Pir could take you places you'd never be able to find by yourself. When we ride with great horsemen, (disclaimer:Buck is not a God. He's more of a Ghandi.) just being there with them, riding with them, I ride better. My horse is better. Eclpse does not DO 25 people in an arena. She freaks. Never saw her that soft. Brent Greaf can and does use energy to help horses and people in a clnic. When I cried and wanted to give up? He said to wait, a breakthrough was coming. It did. Something to ponder.
_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4477 Location: Missouri

Not much time to ponder right now but I sure do love readin' yer stuff!

_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

Deb wrote:

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4477 Location: Missouri

I think the ANSWER is just a personal one and probably not the same for all...... so as soon as it fits, wear it

_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

Nancy, I think one of the problems that people have with that perspective is that they desire/need validation of their beliefs which they tend to rely on society to provide. They look for social groups to belong to, or people to follow, or some other kind of sign that their path is socially validated. Or in a lot cases, they are trying to avoid social disapproval.

I know that in metaphysics, and in some psychological circles as well, it is believed that by the age of 7 people have lost their connection with the source of their creation and are totally socialized(influenced totally by social values). So, the natural tendency to follow the intuitive directions of the subconscious mind that one is born with has been replaced by man-made or social directives within 7 years. For example, people aren't born with racist beliefs based on skin color. The seeds of those beliefs are socially acquired, usually early in life. That example would probably work better decades ago when communities were more isolated and not linked by mass media as they are today. But the basic theory still applies: People learn to become less and less connected to the natural and more and more connected to the social very early in childhood. That may explain why animals often connect more easily to young children. They share more of an intuitive, subconscious view of life with young children than they do with adults or even older children.

This path that some of us seek with something that has been labeled natural horsemanship is no different. Try telling a group of people who have been successful in the show ring that they should change some of their ways and learn to look at things more from the horse's point of view and see what kind of reaction you get. Your attempt to get people to return to the natural will probably result in a somewhat uncomfortable experience and you may find yourself on forums like this one looking for validation of your NH views.

It is very challenging for most people to continue to chart an independent and intuitive course completely devoid of social validation. That's not the way they/we have been trained.

Larry

Clarissa · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:36 pm Post subject: