It's About The Horse

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4355 Location: Kansas

http://www.eclectic-horseman.com/content/view/44/33/
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

That's a good article. I like that he put the square and the importance of the release in the same article. I know a lot of people who ride in the square but have no release for their horse when it is doing what it is supposed to be. Poor horses, they have so much to put up with.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

misstux · Member Joined: 27 Feb 2009 Posts: 948

Thanks for posting that. I saved it off so I can read it over again.

Michael · Member Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 13

Isn't this kinda micro-managing your horse? What about the horses responsibility part? If you were doing point to point you'd be doing the same thing wouldn't you?

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4355 Location: Kansas

It's about keeping your horse in the rectangle. That being between your legs, your hands, not shooting out the front door, not escaping out the back door. This isn't about going anywhere, it's about your horse maintaining his position WITH you, not only physically, but in the mind.
Horse steps to the side without you asking, turns his head and his attention leaves you, you bring him back to you. See?
On a green horse, you are asking them more than you are on a finished horse, to stay with you within the rectangle. Not micro managing, setting boundaries. As long as the horse stayed in the rectangle, Buck (as he put it) offered the horse peace. He said it's the one thing we can give our horses. That release when we leave them alone. If his mare stayed where he put her, he left her alone. If she stepped forward, he moved her back. If she got figity, he moved her a bit and then gave her the choice to be still. Not a lot of movement. Maybe step left, now right, now left, how bout not moving now? She usually took him up on it and fell asleep.
He's always offering the "good deal" first. If the horse doesn't take him up on it, he wil get firm. I've seen dvd's of Tom Dorrance doing the same thing. Ray Hunt, and seen Brent Graef do it as well. Then he'll offer the good deal again. The horse usually thinks it's a good idea to go with that rather than get fussy. Saw Susan Harris do this with the horses in the centered riding clinic too. Tremendous difference for those horses and riders. It is cool because the ask, after getting firm, is even softer than the first time he asks. It gets softer and softer with every ask. I suck at explaning this. It's an amazing thing to watch, and even better to experience.
_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

Michael · Member Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 13

You make it sound 'magical' but it doesn't sound any different to me then what they do in German dressage - micromanaging. Ive heard of lots of people 'riding in a square' like this, but doesn't it push the horse through thresholds? What about your relationship with your horse?

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Those are some valid questions Michael. I think I've asked some before myself, especially about the relationship. I've got several of Buck's DVDs and he never really talks about a relationship with your horse. Some of his students here though say he helps their relationship a lot. They could probably explain that for you.

I have often wondered how those who study Buck and also do Water Hole Rituals with their horses meld the two approaches, since they seem polar opposites to me. I just don't see Buck sitting in a field reading novels with his horses.

_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

becdubie · Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:26 pm Post subject:

Malcolm · Member Joined: 05 Nov 2010 Posts: 135

I think he seems to be talking about the opposite of micro-managing which he sees some dressage riders doing too much of. It is allowing the horse to find a soft place where it can weigh nothing on your hands and your legs. That place is about feel and feel is about a relationship in so far as it is between rider and horse and no two horses or riders are alike but where you want to be with a soft feel is one place and horses will hunt for it if riders are sensitive, balanced and timed enough to let them find it. I guess he is trying put Dorrancian concepts into more articulate words than Tom, Bill or Ray managed. Its hard to explain, but it is about a harmonious relationship and Pat P tries his best to get his version across too.

Malcolm

karmikacres · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 1182

It is the horses responsibility to stay within the rectangle.
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I guess sometimes, on the hopeful path to glory, we get sidetracked and find something better instead.

Michael · Member Joined: 23 Feb 2009 Posts: 13

karmikacres · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 1182

Most of this would be fixed on the ground, as most horses are not even close to halter broke.

Buck never uses spurs for forward, and I have never even seen him ride with them.

At some point, your horse has to trust you enough to get through his thresholds. Either you are the leader or he is.

At work, do you do what is expected of you, or whatever you want?
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I guess sometimes, on the hopeful path to glory, we get sidetracked and find something better instead.

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 506 Location: Austin TX

Michael your questions are acting like someone is saying 'ride your horse in your rectangle and throw all other rules of horsemanship out the window.' Nobody is saying that.
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A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4355 Location: Kansas

Kinda liked that Buck didn't ride in spurs. Bothered me that a lot of people did, and it bothered Buck too. Not the spurs so much, but how people used them as weapons. When he gets bothered, he has no problem voiceing his opinion. He said he told this one lady that when her horse died he wanted the hide right around where her spurs were hitting her horse. He wanted to make boots out of the hide because he was sure those boots would probably last forever. He said that didn't go over too well with her. Then he chuckled. He said some people just don't get it.
I was all prepared to not like him, to tell you the truth. What got me was how very much his horses liked him. Trusted him. How soft he was with them, and how soft they were with him. Yes, he expected his horse to stay in his rectangle. The horse searched for him there, found him and together they moved like they were one soul. In that rectangle? The horse knew she was safe. It wasn't something she wanted to escape. It was her sanctuary. Nothing could harm her as long as she stayed there. I saw that peace he offered her. Saw it in her eyes, her body and it radiated out...in the shape of a rectangle.
Here's what Buck had to say about it, and this isn't a quote because my memory isn't that good. When you ask your horse to go somewhere he's not too sure about, he needs to go because he trusts that you won't take him somewhere he's going to get in trouble. He said it much better, but that's the gist.
Michael, ya sound a little angry. To be fair, go to a clinic and audit. No, I don't thnk Buck is some God. I do find him to be a good horseman, and very kind to his horses. There's a feeling you get when you are there, and unless you are, there I mean, you just aren't going to get it. You can be all prepared to dislike him, and maybe you will. Maybe you won't. As Pat says, "you don't know what you don't know."
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 506 Location: Austin TX

Deb your post made me remember his comments about people that use sticks and whips to whack their horses. He called them bullies and was very sour about it. What I noticed about when he flags a horse is that most of the time the horse is not touched with the flag. If it is touched, it is merely touched gently with Buck's body language in complete neutral. It is waved around his body while Buck gets him to read the persons body language. The horse has to figure out that the proper thing to respond to is his body language first and foremost, not the flag. He can desensitize a horse to the flag and sensitize the horse to his body language in the same session. Now, if his body language is asking the horse to go a certain way and the horse ignores this, he will then use the flag more actively to back up what his body language is saying (but that the horse is ignoring), no different than what Pat does or most other horsemen who practice natural horsemanship (more on levels of horsemanship later). Except he's not much for using a bunch of phases. Then again he is also quite experienced in knowing just how much is enough to get the horse to move without doing it to excess. (I think four phases is good for teaching the human to figure out how much is enough, but that it should be abandoned quickly thereafter.)

I think there are infinite levels of horsemanship ranging from barbaric to completely enlightened.

For me, completely enlightened would be more along the lines of Cynthia Royal and whatever treasure trove of information other more highly spiritually evolved people have in their heads.

We just all have to figure out where WE are at in our journey and do the best we can to climb the ladder.

Because although the name of this forum is 'its about the horse,' WE, (unfortunately for the horse!? LOL) are in the journey too, and we are just not as highly evolved as they are!!
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A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.