It's About The Horse

Hertha · Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:26 pm Post subject:

What amused me most - well two things really.

1. You get life-long assistance upon paying, but the gentleman concerned is fairly elderly ..........................

2. We all, any species including people, live 'contained' by our environment and lots of us have to go through daily routines of paid or unpaid work in order to know where our next meal and rent/mortgage/taxes are going to come from.

3. If we can get our horses living in company with other horses, with room to move reasonable distances (not locked into boxes), shoeless, bitless and undressed, but with adequate shelter they can use by choice, plus feed roughage on a drip feed method, that's about as good as it's going to get. If we can also build some interest and fun to keep curiosity and the brain moving and growing with training that the horse can understand, that is even better. I don't think Chuck is doing any more than that plus applying C Resnick type things.

What people forget is that life 'out on the range naturally' is a darn rough life. Horses don't move because they want to move. They move because out there they have to move to get enough calories and access to water. They need to watch out for neighbouring competitive horses (who require the exact same resources from the environment) and predators. It ain't no picnic out there.

So yeah, we want to 'contain' our horses as close to their ethogram as possible, but as Tigerlily said, it has to go both ways. The saddle has to fit the horse and the person, so to speak.

The name Friendship Training is an oxymoron anyway. You can educate and train yourself to become more knowledgeable about how horses really live so you can become more empathetic.

You can train yourself to maintain emotional neutrality and show love and joyful feelings.

BUT you can't TRAIN friendship. You can create environments that allow the horse to access you as a herd member. You might gel together with a nice pair bond, but you can't TRAIN friendship.

I think that's why Pat kept away from the 'training' word in his logos until he was overwhelmed by the need to be 'search friendly' on the Internet.

Just my 2 cents worth

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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

ROFL Michelle, I enjoyed your 'rant.' I'm interested in Hertha or Blue's take on this. Is it an accredited school? They offer a degree, but I didn't see that it was accredited by any college or university.

It was an interesting read. In the "about us" tab I was looking for degrees and accreditation.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 506 Location: Austin TX

I don't think so, not in the way you are thinking of.

This whole thing (anything manmade) is just all made up anyways, so what's the difference if someone or group of people offer 'certification' or 'degree' in something? If the founder of any methodology wants to certify it, how is that different than another group of say, some other sort of methodology, wants to certify it (and people)? Parelli has levels and certified instructors, with one man (Pat) as the source. Most other big name clinicians have certified teachers. What prevents the founder of FT from certifying his method and having teachers? Does that automatically taint and villify them? I don't think so, inherently.

Although I will say that when it comes to the idea of organizations and methodologies that have a narrow view, a single source and exclude the wisdom and input of all else... they don't particularly personally appeal to me personally. But people, organizations etc can only glean power from those that 'feed into' them. Those that have more money and more organizational skills can have a much larger sphere of influence than those that don't.

This applies to all aspects of life...government, corporations, etc too, not just teachers and religions.
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A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Erin, I will have to disagree. I could care less if he offered a Certificate of Training or some other such nonsense. Even a red string and certificate. But a Degree suggests an accredited school, which means peer reviewed material and specific acceptance standards and graduation requirements. Not some farmer making it up as he goes.

You can be that when I go the MD or take my horses to a Vet, I want to see a real degree from a real University.

That is not to say they have ALL the answers, western medicine largely ignores eastern medicine, which has a lot to offer also. I have one vet who practices both, and I went to PT that practiced both. But I still want that real Degree on the wall.

And when I feed my horse a drug, I want to know that drug is tested, made in a certified pharmacy, and is pure.

60 minutes had a story on Sunday about "doctors" from other countries giving Botox injections and performing laser surgery at Spas and strip mall offices. One was giving anesthesia made for horses, not humans. When there are bad reactions these "doctors" disappear with your money and set up shop elsewhere. Many times these people make up their degrees and certificates and they're not even from real schools. One man they caught was an accountant by training. Had no medical training at all. Performed surgery with an Exacto knife. No shit.

So....a Degree does mean something.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 506 Location: Austin TX

I agree. Notice I did not say 'medicine' or 'science' in my list above

(oh whoops I did say all, so I'll have to take that back)
For sure, I want those people to have studied facts that have been proven and people practicing that have been tested.

On the subject of what we put in our horses' bodies, what about our own bodies, where cosmetics and personal care industry can use any chemicals they want without them being tested or approved? We absorb through our pores into our bloodstream these chemicals and these chemicals, in part, are resulting in more diseases and cancers than we have ever known, just look at the statistics. At least if we ingest it internally, our livers and internal organs have a blood filter there. A degree only means something if it's based on objective study (read: more than one source, as I mentioned earlier....) and factual data (which in some fields, like horse training, is harder to come by.
_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Actually Erin, most commercial cosmetics and personal care products are tested - read this page, I remember the controversy over it:

http://www.geari.org/faqdraize.html

They test because they don't want to be sued for blinding someone or causing serious injury. But, you are totally right. There are all kinds of chemicals in them and in much of the food we eat. It is all pretty discouraging. If you don't grow your own...and who can realistically, then you are subject to a lot of crud.

What does amaze me though is that people will look at test results - and drugs are a good example - that show X number of potential risks in X percentage of users, and it will scare them off using the drug. They'll instead use a herbal remedy that has "natural" on the label...that isn't tested at ALL! Random tests have shown that was is on the label sometimes isn't even in the product at all. Scary!
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4356 Location: Kansas

"And based on the above etho's article he is the worst of the worst as far as charletons go, but since everyone is a charleton....i guess the degree at this point doesn't matter"

See? The degee doesn't matter. I'd like to know the readers digest version of what he does. You know, like Appelitivo did for cr's training? Notes, right to the point, this is what ya do. Doesn't mean I'd use it. I may use some of it.
I do a little cr eveyday. I use a lot of energy, low, med high, mellow, fun, calm, friendly, to interact with the herd. I think it's the energy that connects us all. People, horses, all that is. It's my thang. I guess we all have our own way with our world.
The ft guy has found his thang. I don't judge. I don't judge Pat. I do tend to be a little fussy about CA. I'm working on it. Thang is, the ft guy has found his thang, he charges, a lot and it may be the best thang ever. I'd like a demo. I'd like to know more. Like Tiger Lily, I cannot justify paying 1000.00.
The degree doesn't mean much to me. I know way too many doctors with them that shouldn't be doctors. Give me results. Healing. Answers. It does me no good if it is beyond my reach.
_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 506 Location: Austin TX

This is from your link above:

Not Required by Law

The federal Food, Drug and Cosmetics Act does not require cosmetics manufacturers to test their products for safety, and does not require animal tests. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recommends, however, that companies substantiate the safety of their products, or else attach a warning label to potentially hazardous products. Many companies therefore continue to perform the Draize test mainly because they are in the habit of using the test, and because their legal departments and insurance companies suggest they do the tests to cover themselves when they are sued. The fact that animal tests have been conducted does not mean the product has then been altered to make it less harmful if misused, so the term "safety testing" is a misnomer.

And this is from the EWG website, a statement of who they are and what they do, along with a link to their page with myriads of information on what you can do to inform and protect yourself.

"At EWG, our team of scientists, engineers, policy experts, lawyers and computer programmers pores over government data, legal documents, scientific studies and our own laboratory tests to expose threats to your health and the environment, and to find solutions. Our research brings to light unsettling facts that you have a right to know."

http://www.ewg.org/bodyburden/consumerproducts

EWG, though, is not the only place I've read about these chemical dangers. I'll just beseech each person to investigate for themselves. Here's one article, and one short movie:

A rose may be a rose. But that rose-like fragrance in your perfume may be something else entirely, concocted from any number of the fragrance industry’s 3,100 stock chemical ingredients, the blend of which is almost always kept hidden from the consumer.

Makers of popular perfumes, colognes and body sprays market their scents with terms like “floral,” “exotic,” or “musky,” but they don’t disclose that many scents are actually a complex cocktail of natural essences and synthetic chemicals – often petrochemicals. Laboratory tests commissioned by the Campaign for Safe Cosmetics and analyzed by Environmental Working Group revealed 38 secret chemicals in 17 name brand fragrance products, topped by American Eagle Seventy Seven with 24, Chanel Coco with 18, and Britney Spears Curious and Giorgio Armani Acqua Di Gio with 17.

The average fragrance product tested contained 14 secret chemicals not listed on the label. Among them are chemicals associated with hormone disruption and allergic reactions, and many substances that have not been assessed for safety in personal care products.

Also in the ranks of undisclosed ingredients are chemicals with troubling hazardous properties or with a propensity to accumulate in human tissues. These include diethyl phthalate, a chemical found in 97 percent of Americans (Silva 2004) and linked to sperm damage in human epidemiological studies (Swan 2008), and musk ketone, a synthetic fragrance ingredient that concentrates in human fat tissue and breast milk (Hutter 2009; Reiner 2007).

http://safecosmetics.org/article.php?id=682
_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 506 Location: Austin TX

Bit, I bet there are a few people here who have spent at least 1,000 on Parelli and/or other horse training methodologies or material. I know I have. I am just being a bit of devils advocate here, sorry cant help it. But I didn't do it in one fell swoop, so it made it more palatable. I have not and will not at this point in my thinking sign up for chuck's FT knowledge and I'd be thrilled if someone who has, did share, but hey, that's their prerogative. If I had a thousand bucks to be privy to it, I'm still not sure I'D share. I like to honor people's wishes and who am I to steal someone's thunder. I don't like the idea of being a betrayer.

Wait a minute, I sort of did that with the WHR notes didn't I?

I'm not charging anyone or doing it for a living, does that soften it up a bit?! No, wait, Carolyn has seen my site and has not asked me to remove it, so my conscience remains clean. Whew, that was a close one!
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A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 506 Location: Austin TX

I was trying to find out who Elaine Nash is (that whole 'blanketing article' thing) and I came across this article by her and the story in it shows the type of 'friendship bond' that Chuck is talking about forming with our horses....notice how the two had a special bond and preferred each other's company to the rest of the herds....

http://www.facebook.com/media/set...93.207708.331199206493&type=1
_________________
A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 506 Location: Austin TX

pore
1 [pawr, pohr] Show IPA
verb (used without object), pored, por·ing.
1.
to read or study with steady attention or application: a scholar poring over a rare old manuscript.
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A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

Hertha · Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:09 am Post subject:

I used to 'pour over' things too. Guess I'll be 'poring' from now on.

Interesting article, Erin. Thanks for posting the link.

I had a gelding that had a very similar relationship with a friend's mare. They didn't live together, but visited overnight regularly. Each reunion was instant and profound.
_________________
Author of
*Book: N H STUDY GUIDE
*DVDs: Clicker Training Your Horse; Learning Universal Horse Language; 29 Ways to Ask Your Horse to Back Up; Building Your Horse's Hind End; Walking with Horses; Trailer Loading with Positive Reinforcement