It's About The Horse

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4356 Location: Kansas

Eclpse is herd sour, always has been. I know enough to understand this has got to be partly on my shoulders. To get another horse, would it be the same issues because it's my issue too? She's so much better, but I tell ya, I'm tired of fighting. My hands close very slowly. I ask with my seat and my legs. I make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy. It's like she looses her mind. I'm never scared, but my back hurts and it really beats me up. Serpentining, roll backs, barrel patterns, rrd's, bending the head, and then she'll surrender, lower her head and she's back. Gosh guys, what the heck am I doing wrong?
_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

Mandy'sMarty · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject:

Deb--Which horse, in your band, is the band leader?
_________________
Marty

We must be willing to let go of
The life that we planned
So as to have the life
That is waiting for us.

~Author Unknown

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

All those work activities help to keep her adrenalin up. I know this is what Buck, Clinton, and a few others recommend but I've found they don't work to well on my horses. Some things I've done before that you might try is to take a simple low-adrenalin pattern, like Figure 8 around two cones. Do it close in calmly and reward her. Gradually move the cones farther and farther away and only stop each place when she is calm. Try to avoid getting her adrenalin up and keep her left brained.

Another thing is a John Lyons method where you ride a little ways out. Before she gets bothered you ride back. Do this again and again until she isn't worried at all about that distance and always knows she is coming back. Gradually add distance and time away from the herd as she gains confidence.

I personally like to put some trail obstacles there and keep moving them out so she knows what is expected of her (similar to the Figure 8s) but she also gains confidence in you by navigating the obstacles.

Another thing you can do is trailer just her somewhere, like a fairgrounds and ride her around without her herd. Just you. If you are uncomfortable riding her, just lead her the first few times until she knows you're taking her for a walk and will bring her home again.

And one other thing, some mares just need to think about it. I've seen this before with otherwise confident horses. Go out as far as she goes BEFORE she goes RB and just sit there and wait. Wait as long as it takes. She'll eventually take a step forward.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4356 Location: Kansas

Marty, she's lead mare. Carol, I asked this morning. You know, woo woo asked, and got pretty much what you said. Approach and retreat. I think I took her too far and blew her mind. I needed to go more slowly and give her time to be ok with this. If I trailer her, she is still worried. Working close to home and not stressing her out is probably gong to be the way to go. Fri it's warming right up, and I'll let ya know how it goes. Once we are at peace with it, I bet I'll be able to trailer her and she'll be just fine with that too. Thanks for letting me vent.
_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

Mandy'sMarty · Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:37 pm Post subject:

Deb--I tend to agree with what Carol suggests. I'll add to that what I believe I experienced with Mandy.

Like Eclipse, Mandy is the band leader. After I bought her, I moved her to a farm where we had 450 acres to ride. She was very unwilling to leave the sight of her pasture mates. It took me months to solve this. Finally, I came up with the idea of sending my Lab, Bodacious, out in front of us on the trail. It worked. For whatever reason, Mandy became willing to explore those 450 acres as long as Bodacious was out in front. I now believe it was a way of changing Mandy's pattern and giving her something novel to focus on.

Later, I found it difficult to get Mandy to willingly load up in my trailer. Her issues were complex, but I believe I unraveled one of them after we returned from one of our first long weekends of endurance riding. When I returned Mandy back to her pasture, I soon realized that the dynamics within her band had changed. In fact, the band of 7 had collapsed within the herd of 33 horses. Mandy's band was no more.

That's when I began to believe that Mandy had not been 'herd sour' due to the fear of separation from the safety of her companions. She was worried about her responsibility as band leader. I began to reconsider Mandy's initial unwillingness to explore the acreage at the farm with me. It dawned on me that perhaps she also felt responsible for me and was worried and very cautious when we rode away from the familiar pasture. She probably felt more comfortable for my safety when Bodacious was out front on point for our patrol of three.

When I began to reframe Mandy's behavior it all started to make sense. She is the lead mare that all the other horses look to for guidance. She is very confident and dominant in a quiet way. Yet at times she is very slow and appears unwilling to move into new territory. And unwilling to leave her herd. I started to see that she is willing to move into new territory when she is ready. When she determines it is safe for those for whom she feels responsible.

With time, Mandy's behavior changed and she became willing to explore new places. I believe that the adventures we began having away from her farm established a new pattern for Mandy. She began to assume her new role as my endurance partner and her role as lead mare found a different place within her that was not so demanding. In a way, I think Mandy re-invented herself.

Today Mandy lives on a much smaller farm and she has a much smaller herd living with her. There is only one gelding, who thinks he's boss, and six other mares in her band. Her life is simpler with fewer responsibilities. We have found a public park of 200 acres less than a 15 minute trailer ride away. Mandy readily loads up in our trailer. I'm sure she is eager to get a change of scenery...and I can tell she seems to enjoy traveling at 55 miles an hour. I strive to make sure that every time we trailer away from her farm, we do something that is fun for her.

I've noticed this year that Mandy is now unwilling to break into a gallop whenever I cue her at the park. It's not because she can't gallop. She can. In fact, I've never known her to pass up an opportunity to fly like the wind when asked. I believe she is worried about Bodacious, who is going to be 12 in April. Bo can usually still keep up with us at a collected trot, but quickly gets left behind at a gallop. Mandy knows this. And I'm sure she feels responsible for her old friend. Once a lead mare, always a lead mare.
_________________
Marty

We must be willing to let go of
The life that we planned
So as to have the life
That is waiting for us.

~Author Unknown

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

That is an excellent observation Marty. I see the same thing with Zar, and I think it's why she prefers to be the lead horse. She is not competitive but she likes to be in front to protect her herd...all the horses behind her. She takes this role very seriously, even chasing cows or deer off the trail.

As for worrying about their herd position, that is true too. Bien and Zar are both lead mares. I tried a few times and finally gave up keeping them in the pasture together. They would fight and I was too worried one would get hurt. But I have them across the fence from each other. They even sleep side-by-side with their ears back, each making sure the other doesn't make a move on 'their herd' while she sleeps.

There is still so much we learn about horses all the time. I love these two and their "mare games." I honestly don't think I'll own another gelding after the current three are gone. I love my prissy and pissy girls. LOL
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4477 Location: Missouri

Lyons here. I solved this same problem doing the inch away and come back method. After awhile you'll be amazed at how calm everyone gets cause they just know you'll be right back and so there's no sense getting themselves all worked up

_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

I think Carolyn Resnick has an interesting idea for dealing with this type of problem. She suggests feeding a barn sour horse outside of the enclosure where the horse normally resides, and then taking the horse away from the bucket before it's finished and put it back in the herd. Before long, the horse begins to miss the unfinished feed more than it misses the herd. Eventually, the horse forgets about the herd and begins to look forward to getting outside. Move the feeding area further and further away from the barn each time.

You can even place a bucket of feed somewhere along a trail and the horse begins to anticipate the feed more than it misses the herd. The key is to take the horse away from the bucket while there is still feed left in the bucket. Do this daily for awhile until you get the effect you're looking for.

Larry

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4356 Location: Kansas

Remember, I ripped her away from her herd for two months when I sent her down to Missouri for training. Must have done some damage. sigh. I'm just going to take it slow, at her pace and I know we'll work it out. I took her too far, too fast, and she let me know how it hurt her. Thankfully, horses are very forgiving!
_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

Clarissa · Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:54 am Post subject:

Yes I agree with the group here too. Stretch the rubber band slowly by what ever devious means you need to use including bribery Deb.

When one thing fails after the third try & you’re sure you’ve been asking right, do the opposite & asses.

I used to have trouble with Sonny since he had placed himself as herd minder so when they were out of view he started up & often put on a really good rodeo display as well as screaming his tits off.

I spent years learning how to get inside his head for this very thing. In the end I had to pander to his male mind by making him feel special when in my space (which was also away from the others). It didn’t take very many days before he was looking out for me to wave him up for treats, grooming, scratches, walkies for good grass along the road in the dry season. When I rode I would let him graze that same good grass for a while before doing anything so in his eyes the ride was apparently for the benefit of him eating grass rather than me teaching anything or us going anywhere. That stopped all the crap immediately.
_________________
http://clissats-own-page.blogspot.com/
Most of L4 PNH achieved WooHoo!! happy10

HopeMissouri · Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:14 pm Post subject:

Deb, my horses are pretty independent on the trails AWAY FROM HOME. I can ride away from the trailhead, alone, with not much concern. My riding friend can ride out of sight on the trail, and my horses couldn't care less. I'm confortable, they're confident.

Yet, if I ride down my own street too far, my guys are looking around for their home pals.

We ride a lot more often away from home than in our higher traffic neighborhood. I'm more concerned about how they're behaving at home because I've witnessed their sillyness on our own street. If it was really important for me to ride down my street, I'd do it more often, riding only as far as I was comfortable going, then turning around. I know from experience, that I'd have to ride my street nearly everyday and in the beginning, stay fairly close to home.

I like being with my friends and family. I suspect my horses feel the same way.
_________________

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4356 Location: Kansas

Gosh, such good riding here, just down the dirt roads. I think I will trailer her down that way, park and hope she's confused. My friend's barn has a road that loops around. She's never sure where the hell home is. I hate to use the diesel, especially since we can go right out the back door. I think consistancy will help a lot. Can't wait for this weather to do that...29 one day, 55, then 8, then 48.

_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

Hertha · Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:50 am Post subject:

Hi DeBit.

Boots I think is similar to Mandy. It may have been something Marty wrote a while back that put the idea into my mind that Boots was worried at times because she felt responsible for me as well as herself.

Clicker training with mats is another possibility.

You can free-shape her interest in a mat and make the mat a totally sweet spot because the mat always means a click/treat is forthcoming.

Once they love one mat it seems easy for them to love any mat. A mat always means CLICK/TREAT.

Then you can play with two mats any distance you like apart. You can do a simple loop from one mat to the other mat.

You can lay out a triangle of mats, two rows of mats, circles of mats.

You'd use the mats in the same way as PasoCarol described moving your play objects. The mats are just more specific and a darn lot easier to move around

Laying out some mats down your trails within her confidence bubble might work because it gives her ownership of where she is going - she can see a reason for going there - she'll be looking for her next mat.

As her confidence increases, you can move the mats further out, lay out whole series of mats and gradually increase the distances between them. You can lay them out in a circuit that brings her back home. She may well focus on the next mat rather than the whole deal of rushing home.

It's like Larry wrote about C Resnick's thing with the bucket of feed. Again, mats are so much easier to manage.

I got a heap of free mats by rolling into the local carpet shop and asked for their expired samples 'books'. I explained why I wanted them and the chap was quite intrigued.

Definitely agree with PasoCarol about keeping it all low-key. She'll tell you if the mats are too far away and you just bring them closer.

It's also easy to take the mats to any other place you want to get her confident and just do the familiar mat games there.

I call this Destination Training. Like us, horses like to know their destination rather than be pushed into the unknown like going on a mystery tour.

PM me if you want more details

_________________
Author of
*Book: N H STUDY GUIDE
*DVDs: Clicker Training Your Horse; Learning Universal Horse Language; 29 Ways to Ask Your Horse to Back Up; Building Your Horse's Hind End; Walking with Horses; Trailer Loading with Positive Reinforcement

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

That's a great idea Hertha.

You always amaze me with your imagination and ingenuity. I think this would work with a lot of horses.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4356 Location: Kansas

I just got this cartoon image of me on Eclipse, tossing mats in front of us, click treat!, as we move down the road. I think what I need to do is keep our first tries where she can see the herd, until she is comfy. Food always trumps herd.
10 degrees out, so I think it will be tomorrow, 50's, until I can put plan into action. We are headed out today, so I will see if I can find a carpet outlet to get some mats. Otherwise I'll pick up some hula hoops.
Funny how a lot of folks would think this is about being herd sour, cough cough, but it's really about something so much more. Horsemanship appears to be about looking beyond that which appears. Just like life.
_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"