It's About The Horse

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4356 Location: Kansas

I kept telling Carol, my centered riding instructor "I quit riding when she gaits. I don't know what to do. It's smooth and it feels like I just sit there." She finally understood today, I totally quit riding when Eclipse gaits. If you quit riding, you lose the connection. Horse gets worried. Everything falls apart on every level. Horse paces.
Eclipse's motion in the saddle will send you into this sashay kind of side to side motion. Looks like that infinity symbol. No forward, just side to side, like a sideways 8. Today, she said that although what I mostly felt was side to side, she wanted me to try and feel any forward motion and then move with that. Pick out the good part of how she moves, and don't encourage the side to side. I did. There was the slightest peak at the top of the the circle, (hope I'm saying this right) so when my hip went to the side, it also went forward for an instant, then around again and back. There is the most subtle of forward, for just a milisecond as you hip comes around. I latched onto that forward bit, and that's the only movement I did. I got forward impulsion. The sashay stopped, and she changed how she moved.
I know how to feel where the feet are at a walk. That back right foot pushes off, your right hip comes up. I get how to get that forward movement. Now at the gait? It all goes smooth and I couldn't feel, so I just sat. OOOOH, says Carol. So she showed me that even though it's much smaller, there is still the slightest up on the hip as the foot pushes off. It's faster and it's a smaller movement, but it's there. So treat it like you did the side to side. Now that I could feel it, and I had to really be plugged in, I could do the forward thing, and I could also give the most subtle of rein aids for a circle, timing my give and take with the back foot.
Amazing. No more pacing. Horse that listens. Human that can feel.

I love centered riding! I love taking lessons!
_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

Yes_But_Neigh · Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 6:16 am Post subject:

Deb, my trainer said that some horses do the shoving forward movement and others do the sashay.(gaited horses that is) Bodie does both, he shoved forward, feels like his shoulder dislocates, slams his leg forward/down and does the sashay circle back and then it repeats itself from the beginning. His dog walk is just a sashay and when he goes into a flat walk, he goes forward, more like a rocking horse. Real gentle and gliding like. Canter? Completely collected and correct. Lifts his back and everything. I'm curious as to see if your rides continue to improve. Is carol familiar with gaited horses? Now that I'm moving to southern California my goal is to find a cr trainer. I wish I could sit in on your lessons, I would learn so much.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Deb, I understand your problem, and you should try it on a quick gait! LOL It is very hard to keep an active seat on a smooth horse.

If you remember that gait is the exact same sequence as the walk, start at the walk and ride that faster and faster you should get gait. Probably why Eclipse paces is that your seat, moving side to side, is telling her to pace.

If you can afford it, you might take Eclipse to a Larry Whitesell clinic, since this is exactly what you work on...your seat and riding gait, slower and faster, all the transitions in your seat.

Good luck.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4356 Location: Kansas

Carol, that makes perfect sense! Holy cow! If I ride the sashay, I get pace. If I ride the forward movement, I get gait! Ahhhhhhhh!
It was so smooth, I couldn't feel anything. I thought it was smooth anyway. A bit like riding in a car, until I really started paying attention. THEN I felt it, and could ride that glide. Even if the gait is incredibly smooth, or itty bitty like a paso, you still have to have, as Carol said, an active seat. Ya can't just sit there. That's what bothered me so much. I knew I was sitting there, and just sitting means no connection. Eclipse was so calm and centered yesterday, once we were all plugged in, connected and I was riding, really riding.
When I started out, my mind was just spinning with the Cusack drama, Tony leaving for the summer, my daughter's college and boyfriend drama. Eclipse was spooky, concerned and when I hopped on, she took off. Not fast, but a pretty good walk. I asked if I could "try that again", circled around to the mounting block and got off. Carol was smiling and stood with us while we did a nice deep breath, exhaled, relaxed and got on again. Eclipse relaxed, and took a breath too. We did some cr grounding stuff, and she relaxed even more. So did I. Another reminder, be in the present moment. You can't be with your horse if your mind is galloping off, spooking, and your ears are pinned. She is such a sensitive horse, she went right with me. It's so nice to know she's so plugged in, and all I have to do is be very calm, and so is she. Just think happy thoughts, and we can fly. Very Peter Pan. Big aha's yesterday.
_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4356 Location: Kansas

from cr Carol

Just to clarify, Eclipse does not pace all the time by any means (even if at times you feel like you “quit” when you 2 are working on gaiting) There are a lot of degrees to “gaiting” that formulate one of many Gait options on a Fox Trotter..

There are 3 movements a horse may offer a rider’s seat at walk – all are there: side to side (sashay as I called it), some forward and back and some up and down. We want to feel the up and down and forward and back – this is what combines to make the backward pedaling of a bicycle feel through your seat bones. Side to side motion that one could pick up (and is offered more by some horses than others), is not useful in getting your horse moving forward with good forward engagement of hind legs. Yesterday we were feeling the forward push from her hind legs. It can carry into gaiting.
_________________
"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

Yes_But_Neigh · Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:53 pm Post subject:

OH MY GOSH OH MY GOSH OH MY GOSH! I GET IT NOW! CUHLICKKKKKK! Duh! This is going to help SO much while riding Bodie. It wasn't a post about gaiting, but rather, a post about continuing to RIDE these smooth horses. My goodness! Wow!

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4477 Location: Missouri

I need some CR lessons. Often wondered why my gal broke gait so much and fell into the pace........ I became complacent and just quit riding

I'll be working on the forward motion this weekend, thanks forum friends, you all are the best teachers

_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

stella · Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:07 pm Post subject:

Hi! I'm new on this forum, and breeder of Carol U's horse, Zar, in her avatar. Aside from breeding and owning PFs since about '74, I've also professionally trained, not just PFs, but also a number of other gaited breeds, totally naturally, and own a half Paso/SSH too....recently worked with some SSH and TWH, for gait corrections.

Riding wise, I'd have to say I mainly use CR principles for riding, but I guess I've been off in my own corner a long time, as I don't really totally understand what you're talking about, in having such an active seat, and making riding so much work.

Personally, I think its important to understand the nature of gait; how perfect gait is an "ambidextrous" horse, relying just as much on its lateral support system as its diagonal one; and, while HAVING A GOOD SECURE SEAT(balanced, that's the key to everything), also having a quiet seat, that helps the horse by NOT throwing it off balance.

The horse has to be in proper frame-balance, to gait properly. I like having a secure but quiet seat, and my body well-balanced right above my seat(yet relaxed), so that movement of my weight will not interfere with the horse's balance(from the horse's point of view, innately the top priority!). I always tell my students, alot of movement is like static on the radio.....if there's alot, then you must "speak" too loudly with the rest of your aids....and the horse is also distracted trying to keep its own balance first and foremost(which, they can do whatever gait needed to quickly regain equilibrium-again, to them, #1 priority).....whereas, being quiet in your seat, you can just "whisper" with your aides (such as your legs!)to get "forward," without interfering with the horse's balance, and be able to maintain correct gait, without getting trotty or pacey.

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4477 Location: Missouri

Stella, glad to hear from a new voice! Being not well versed in this area it is great to know that we can discuss this riding issue. My SSH mares are great but I have a lot of basic questions like what about my older mare who really doesn't want to canter? Did I just Hijack this, hope not.
_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

stella · Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 12:26 am Post subject:

So, in reading your post, I would imagine that your SSH mare tends more so to get lateral-pacey- in her gait, perhaps with that tendency.
While the canter actually has the same footfall sequence as gait(surprise!), the timing is different, and it has a great emphasis on the diagonal support system.
Actually, the canter is a great way to strengthen the diagonal supports to help horses build up their ability to gait squarely, if their tendency(usually a conformational thing, but sometimes rider, farrier)is more to depend on lateral supports-in other words, be pacey.

If you can visualize that the point for gaited horse owners is to equalize their horse's ability to use both lateral and diagonal support systems- being in gait, you're basically alternating support systems, and avoiding that moment of "suspension" when all 4 feet are off the ground, going from one set of diagonals to the other(trot)or one set of laterals to the other(dead pace).

Usually, horses tend to pace because they're taking a bigger(longer) step in the back than in the front(so it lands "late"), which can be a matter of them not bending from the stifle enough(or at all!) and just shooting that back leg straight forward; restriction of the forehand/front leg by the rider holding the reins too tight(a horse must be able to get its head above its front leg as it becomes weightbearing to advance-restrict the head, shorten stride); sometimes the saddle(or the rider, or the headgear/bit) is making the horse work concave(which, depending on conformation, can make for trotty or pacey). Often, the pacey horse is straighter in the stifle, has more "let down" hocks, is lower in back leg motion(and trotty horses tend to have a higher action "way of going," conformationally determined to a large extent).

Training is partly teaching the horse to do something, and partly, getting the horse into the physical condition to do whatever it is, well, and this comes first.
You want to set the horse up for success(ok, you too!).
So, baby steps, to prepare...first do alot of lateral exercises, such as concentric circles-snail shells(in and out, large to smaller), serpentines and figure 8s around cones....start with big figures, work on down...and start at a walk-then collected walk, to get the horse to bend, to use their hindquarters and start to bend also at the stifle, and then hock, more. You want to muscle up this area, the stifle, gaskin, underpinning of the rear end/buttocks. (yes, you're "bodybuilding")

Basically, you're "stress conditioning"....doing just enough, a little each day and building on it, so that the body reacts by building tissue(and also, densifies bone, too), rather than tearing it down, as asking too much will do. In training, you're always better off being conservative, than getting carried away, even if your horse is learning by leaps and bounds, there's a fine line, don't forget the physical stress. You will see that the horse will sweat on these weaker parts as they strengthen, and they'll sweat less there once these parts get "conditioned".
Yes, lunging in the canter helps build those muscles too- and make sure to do both ways, to help get that horse "ambidextrous" for sure-and get both leads eventually too, without unintentional cross-cantering(like us, horses like using their strengths, avoiding using their weaknesses, so don't do less on "the hard side", work on the discipline of getting it done right).

Eventually, you can try the canter US, best done on a circle---but I'll save some of that info/details for later, so you don't rush! Hope this is enough to get you started in the right direction....but you'll find, suppling your horse will work wonders for gait, discipline, everything, while you're on your way to the canter. Keep me posted!

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4477 Location: Missouri

My mare does have stifle problems and gets pretty pacey. I always thought that I had a nice relaxed seat, with her, and it never made sense that she kept breaking gate. She has been significantly better since I purchased a treeless saddle. Thanks so much for the great post and I WILL begin to work her using the exercises you suggest and building slowly with care not to over-do it. She is a big gal and not the most graceful so probably will take some time.

_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

Yes_But_Neigh · Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:49 am Post subject:

Stella,
Do you have any reading material you can suggest for us who have gaited horses in our lives? I've got a 4 y/o KMSH and loved reading your post combined with Deb's helpful information

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Emili,

For reading I'd suggest Lee Ziegler's, "Easy Gaited Horses" It is a good book and covers the different breeds and different gaits.

http://www.amazon.com/Easy-Gaited...TF8&qid=1306497379&sr=1-1

But, for videos on getting natural gait through collection, I suggest Larry Whitesell:

http://www.whitesellgaitedhorsemanship.com/

One thing I will say about an active seat, when I was doing Parelli and now with dressage, when I 'ride to a stop' if I'm not actively riding, there is no way to ride to a stop, since I'm not in time with my horse and my seat means nothing; I'm not in control of the feet. I admit I don't ride actively on trail rides, but I do when ever I'm 'working' my horse. We've talked before about how easy it is to be lazy on them...well, when I'd be told to relax and quit riding, there was no place to relax to. I started riding with my horse and it all became very easy.

I think it's kind of hard to mix methods too much. I'd suggest finding what works best for you and your horse and doing it.

BTW - for those that don't know, Stella was mixing dressage and gait on horses many MANY years ago.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4477 Location: Missouri

Good point Carol. How can a horse know that you have stopped riding if you weren't active to begin with, Duh

I have been teaching my girl to do this and have had to exaggerate to get her to recognize my seat has changed. I bought a BB pad to help us get closer and to make it easier for her to notice........ it's working

_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Several years ago my husband was having trouble getting Santiago to canter. All Santiago would do was gait faster. I got on and the canter was right there the instant I asked for it. I did this a few times, gait to canter or walk to canter, and no problem. He got back on and he would just get faster gait. That was when I realized what the problem was. He was asking for the canter by raising his energy. Santiago complied with more energy. I asked for canter by cantering with my seat and body, and Santiago started cantering underneath me. It took a while and some rides on Diablo - who loves to canter - and they were cantering fine.

This is a good example of an active seat. You can use an active seat to get very short, slow or long and fast strides at a walk. It's pretty interesting to play with your horse this way.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt